A Clear Definition from Pete
As far as my compilations of these verses that is more or less all that it is. I have not, as of yet, put them together in a systematic way but they all have to do with the Lord’s choosing. Some are not as clear or direct as others but they do serve to support other verses. What I have done is every time I find a verse that regards election, choice, or predestination I would just jot it down. If I was to put them in full context then I would have a whole lot more verses laid down. I just wrote down the key verse so that I would know were to go and the context would be around it.&a mp;n bsp; There are a lot more in the OT that I have not gotten to yet. Anyway, I will do my best to try to answer your e-mail.
Jesus did not ask anyone to follow Him. He simply commanded, “Come and follow Me”. There was not an opportunity for the disciples to choose. There is no scriptural evidence to support the idea that the disciples had an opportunity to choose. Jesus said to come and follow and the disciples immediately stopped what they were doing and followed. Otherwise, the word and power of God is dependant on the will of man which would make man ultimately in control and God would not be sovereign. Now, human logic would say that the disciples obviously had to choose because t hey got up from where they were at and followed as opposed to just sitting there and not to following. Jesus, however, did not ask but commanded. The disciples were compelled to follow by the power and grace of God. God did not ask light to come forth, He commanded. Jesus did not ask Lazarus to come forth, He commanded and he came. Lazarus did not have a choice but to obey. It is an oxymoron to say that Jesus “elected” but the disciples “chose”. If the disciples “chose” then Jesus could do no more than ask. If Jesus “elected” then there has to be a cause and effect to the word and power of God.&a mp;nb sp; They had no choice but to choose, if that helps. To say that the “election” of God can be thwarted by the “choice” of man is to nullify the power and will of God.
This is not to be confused with the daily exercise of your salvation. There are only two people, those who are slaves to sin and those who are slaves to Christ. Having said that, now that I am in Christ, I have an obligation to serve him to the best of my ability. I can serve him vigorously or I can serve him lazily. The Lord can and has compelled me to do things, knowingly and unknowingly, but even though I am His slave this in not the norm but the Lord does have control so that His will is ultimately accomplished. I definitely have a part in my service to the Lord but this is post salvation. The Lord is going to accomplish what He wants; I now have the ability to serve Him where as before I did not.
If it was prophesied that Judas would betray Jesus but that Judas had a choice then not only is the prophecy irrelevant but it is by definition not a prophecy at all. A prophecy is a declaration of what will happen, not what may or may not happen. If there is a prophecy that does not happen then it is a false prophecy. To say that a prophecy may or may not happen means that it is nothing more than a guess. A prophecy is not hanging in limbo to be determined if it is true or false. A prophecy is determined when it is spoken and confirmed when it is accomplished. Judas confirmed that the prophecy was true. Jonah’s prophecy, however, was not accomplished because the Lord had mercy. This is not to say that he was a false prophet but that the Lord was merciful and His will was done.
Pre: earlier than, prior to, before, in advance, beforehand, in front of, anterior to. Destine: to decree beforehand, to designate, assign, or dedicate in advance, to direct, devise, or set apart for a specific purpose or place. To say that that God predestined everything but that man has to choose is another oxymoron and is completely contrary to the definition of predestination. Predestine: to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand. Predestine is actually a double positive. The prefix and the root mean the same thing and one reinforces the other. To predestine something is to determine and establish what will happen first, not what might happen or knowing what will happen and then go back in time and say that such and such is going to happen. God does not find out what we will do and then declare predestination because then it is no longer predestination. Preknowledge is not predestine but predestine does contain preknowledge. Predestine says that God knows what will happen because He is the one who determines what will happen. Predestination is the base of foreknowledge. Foreknowledge cannot be the base of predestination because you cannot know what will happen if nothing has been determined yet. God cannot say; even though I have not created or determined anything, I know what will happen. What y ou are saying is that although God created everything He did not know everything that He created, therefore, He looked into the future, saw what would happen, and then went back before time began and said this is what I want to have happen. That is like getting a score on a test that you haven’t taken and then take the test in order to get the score to come out right.
This might help a little. When God rested on the 7th day he did not just take a break. It says that He rested from “all” His work. The Lord created the beginning and end of time and everything in between. We are just here at this point in time but the Lord is already in tomorrow. He is not going through time with us nor is He waiting around for events to take place. He does not know the future simply because He is omniscient but because He is the author of all creation. God did not create us arbitrarily, look into the future, learn what the outcome would be, and then say that is what he predestin ed. Everything that happens is in accordance to the plan that God had before time began.
The scriptures are clear. If man were left to make the choice then no one would be saved. Yes there is a universal call to repentance but there is a difference between simply doing what is right and becoming a servant of the Lord. Man is by nature opposed to righteousness. This is not to say that a sinner can’t do a righteous act but he does lack the ability to worship and give glory and honor to God and to lead a righteous life by following the Lord.
God knows the outcome because it is His plan. If you believe like the Unitarians that God set the world in motion but only knows what the outcome is because He is omniscient then why has He performed miracles? If there are miracles then Lord is performing them for a reason. Is it to manipulate time and space in order to make sure that events turn out like He has foreseen or are they a part of His plan? I would suggest the latter.
All of this usually boils down to the same old Armenian question of what is the point if everything is predetermined. Why should I be a witness if everyone has already been determined heaven or hell. Well, there are a lot of reasons. The first one is that the Lord has commanded that I be a witness and preach the gospel. This is all that any believer needs. I find it incredibly ludicrous for believers to think that is not enough and need a better reason. I can’t remember the verse but Paul makes an assertion that he preaches so that the elect and hear it and believe. It is not for us to question why but to d o and die (Emmerson). It is not my responsibility to build the church. Jesus said, “I will build my church”. It is my responsibility to say, here I am Lord, use me. I am nothing more than a tool in His hand.
I am also compelled to be a witness. I know that I can sit in a closet for the rest of my life and still go to heaven but that is impossible for me to do. Now that I am bought and paid for and are a new creature, I have to serve the Lord not only from duty but from desire. I could run off and be the prodigal son but I know that I would return from the swine sooner or later. Not because the Lord needs me to fulfill His will but because I need Him. I witness not because He needs me to but because I am his servant, I love Him, and I want please Him.
I think that one of the reasons that people question why is that they really do not understand what the main purpose of creation and salvation. We were created for one sole purpose and that is to worship, praise, and glorify God and enjoy Him forever. We screwed that up. The only way that we would be able to praise and worship Him in the heavenly places is through the plan of salvation. The fact that Jesus would have to die was in the plan in the beginning. Jesus did not decide to humble Himself only after man fell. The fact that you and I will get to live forever in paradise is a byproduct of the real purpose. Jesus did not confine Himself to bodily form, suffer and die so that we would simply not get what we deserve. The purpose of salvation was planed from the beginning so that the Father could give a love gift to His Son by the Holy Spirit. We are the bride of Christ so that we can worship Him in glory forever and ever and ever. We have not been saved so that the Lord could glorify us. That is secondary.
If free choice is true and we are all equally sinners then how can some have the ability to follow Christ and others not? How can I have the ability to choose God when I am no better than a drunken, murderous, fornicator who dies in his sin? It is more than arrogant to say that I am smart enough or good enough to choose Christ but that someone else is not, or that I am not as bad of a sinner as someone else. God does not qualify sin.
One of the questions that free choice people often bring up is, “Well what makes you so special that God would choose you?” First of all, you will have to ask Him. This is His idea not mine. Second, the Scriptures say that He has chosen the weak and foolish things of this world. He has not chosen me because I am stronger and wiser but because I am weaker and foolish.
Here are a few of the things that are either fundamentally wrong with free will or that cause much disturbance.
1. God would not have a plan for the world or even for my life. Simply knowing what the outcome would be does not constitute as a plan. If God does not have a plan for His people then you need to throw out about 5% of the Scriptures, if not more.
2. If God does have a plan then it would be dependant on the will of man. This is no plan at all. If God thinks that man is going to get it right than He is a bigger fool than I am.
3. The scriptures state that there is none who is righteous; there is none who seek after God. The validity of the scriptures would then be in question. Man is not saved on his righteousness but on the righteousness of Christ.
4. All infants who die are in hell without hope.
5. All aborted babies either elective or natural are in hell without hope
6. All of the OT saints, including John the Baptist, are in hell without hope
7. There is no doctrine of free will. At best there is only an elaborate justification.
8. Saying that the Lord could not save me without my approval stinks of self-righteousness pride which was Adams downfall in the beginniging.
9. A lot of people think that election is not fair. That is exactly right. God is not fair. He is Just and Merciful and praise God He is not fair. If He was fair then everyone would get what they deserve. Is there anyone who deserves heaven? No. Does everyone deserve Hell? Yes .
10. Salvation can be picked up and dropped whenever the individual decides, like walking through a gate. Jesus died once for your sins. He cannot die a second time. I forgot where that verse is. It may be in the list.
Another complaint by free will is that it is not really true love if you have to force someone to love you. I agree. Unfortunately this has nothing to do with election and predestination. Did you force your wife to love you? No. Did you conduct yourself in such a way that your wife does love you? Yes. Can you say that she still had to choose to love you? No. She did have to choose to commit to you in marriage but that was after she already loved you. She came to love you and she didn’t even realize it until it was to late (poor girl). She never decided to love you but, she does. Does that make it less? So it is with the Lord. Some people He has poured out His grace, mercy, and love and others He hasn’t. He has not forced me to Love Him but His Love is irresistible. His grace is irresistible.
Still another is prayer. Why would the Lord have us pray if everything is determined? Well, because He said so. I would suppose that most, if not all, of the things that the Lord has us do is for our benefit, not His. The Lord wants us to seek Him out and have a personal relationship with Him. After Adam sinned God asked him where he was. Did God not know? Of course He did, but He was developing His relationship with Adam. Who really knows why the Lord does what He does.
I am sure that you have heard of the analogy of how salvation is like a man who is drowning. Someone throws a life saver to him but it is his choice to either grab hold or not. Or this one, salvation is like a Christmas gift but the man still has to open the present to get the gift. Those are very good analogies except for one minor detail. The man is dead. The analogy is wrong from the base because it is saying that the man is still alive when the Scriptures say otherwise. I have seen plenty of dead people in my job let me tell you, working with a dead man is like working with a 200lb bag of wet hair. We h ave a saying, DRT- dead right there. I have to breathe for him. I have to pump his heart for him. He can do nothing by lay there like a dead slug. You can throw 1,000,000 life savers at this drowning man but it would be the same as throwing mill stone because he is not drowning, he is already drowned. I was not dying in my sin; I was dead in my sin but Christ is the one who made me alive not my ability to say ‘yes’. The only thing you will get out of a dead man is poop and puke and the sound affects that go with it.
Take time to go through those verses and break them down. I still have many questions myself. I know that I will be studying this for the rest of my life and still not have all of the answers. I do not believe election because it makes sense. I believe it because that is what the Bible says. I don’t have to like it; I just have to accept it. It doesn’t have to make perfect sense to me; I just have to believe it.
Jesus did not ask anyone to follow Him. He simply commanded, “Come and follow Me”. There was not an opportunity for the disciples to choose. There is no scriptural evidence to support the idea that the disciples had an opportunity to choose. Jesus said to come and follow and the disciples immediately stopped what they were doing and followed. Otherwise, the word and power of God is dependant on the will of man which would make man ultimately in control and God would not be sovereign. Now, human logic would say that the disciples obviously had to choose because t hey got up from where they were at and followed as opposed to just sitting there and not to following. Jesus, however, did not ask but commanded. The disciples were compelled to follow by the power and grace of God. God did not ask light to come forth, He commanded. Jesus did not ask Lazarus to come forth, He commanded and he came. Lazarus did not have a choice but to obey. It is an oxymoron to say that Jesus “elected” but the disciples “chose”. If the disciples “chose” then Jesus could do no more than ask. If Jesus “elected” then there has to be a cause and effect to the word and power of God.&a mp;nb sp; They had no choice but to choose, if that helps. To say that the “election” of God can be thwarted by the “choice” of man is to nullify the power and will of God.
This is not to be confused with the daily exercise of your salvation. There are only two people, those who are slaves to sin and those who are slaves to Christ. Having said that, now that I am in Christ, I have an obligation to serve him to the best of my ability. I can serve him vigorously or I can serve him lazily. The Lord can and has compelled me to do things, knowingly and unknowingly, but even though I am His slave this in not the norm but the Lord does have control so that His will is ultimately accomplished. I definitely have a part in my service to the Lord but this is post salvation. The Lord is going to accomplish what He wants; I now have the ability to serve Him where as before I did not.
If it was prophesied that Judas would betray Jesus but that Judas had a choice then not only is the prophecy irrelevant but it is by definition not a prophecy at all. A prophecy is a declaration of what will happen, not what may or may not happen. If there is a prophecy that does not happen then it is a false prophecy. To say that a prophecy may or may not happen means that it is nothing more than a guess. A prophecy is not hanging in limbo to be determined if it is true or false. A prophecy is determined when it is spoken and confirmed when it is accomplished. Judas confirmed that the prophecy was true. Jonah’s prophecy, however, was not accomplished because the Lord had mercy. This is not to say that he was a false prophet but that the Lord was merciful and His will was done.
Pre: earlier than, prior to, before, in advance, beforehand, in front of, anterior to. Destine: to decree beforehand, to designate, assign, or dedicate in advance, to direct, devise, or set apart for a specific purpose or place. To say that that God predestined everything but that man has to choose is another oxymoron and is completely contrary to the definition of predestination. Predestine: to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand. Predestine is actually a double positive. The prefix and the root mean the same thing and one reinforces the other. To predestine something is to determine and establish what will happen first, not what might happen or knowing what will happen and then go back in time and say that such and such is going to happen. God does not find out what we will do and then declare predestination because then it is no longer predestination. Preknowledge is not predestine but predestine does contain preknowledge. Predestine says that God knows what will happen because He is the one who determines what will happen. Predestination is the base of foreknowledge. Foreknowledge cannot be the base of predestination because you cannot know what will happen if nothing has been determined yet. God cannot say; even though I have not created or determined anything, I know what will happen. What y ou are saying is that although God created everything He did not know everything that He created, therefore, He looked into the future, saw what would happen, and then went back before time began and said this is what I want to have happen. That is like getting a score on a test that you haven’t taken and then take the test in order to get the score to come out right.
This might help a little. When God rested on the 7th day he did not just take a break. It says that He rested from “all” His work. The Lord created the beginning and end of time and everything in between. We are just here at this point in time but the Lord is already in tomorrow. He is not going through time with us nor is He waiting around for events to take place. He does not know the future simply because He is omniscient but because He is the author of all creation. God did not create us arbitrarily, look into the future, learn what the outcome would be, and then say that is what he predestin ed. Everything that happens is in accordance to the plan that God had before time began.
The scriptures are clear. If man were left to make the choice then no one would be saved. Yes there is a universal call to repentance but there is a difference between simply doing what is right and becoming a servant of the Lord. Man is by nature opposed to righteousness. This is not to say that a sinner can’t do a righteous act but he does lack the ability to worship and give glory and honor to God and to lead a righteous life by following the Lord.
God knows the outcome because it is His plan. If you believe like the Unitarians that God set the world in motion but only knows what the outcome is because He is omniscient then why has He performed miracles? If there are miracles then Lord is performing them for a reason. Is it to manipulate time and space in order to make sure that events turn out like He has foreseen or are they a part of His plan? I would suggest the latter.
All of this usually boils down to the same old Armenian question of what is the point if everything is predetermined. Why should I be a witness if everyone has already been determined heaven or hell. Well, there are a lot of reasons. The first one is that the Lord has commanded that I be a witness and preach the gospel. This is all that any believer needs. I find it incredibly ludicrous for believers to think that is not enough and need a better reason. I can’t remember the verse but Paul makes an assertion that he preaches so that the elect and hear it and believe. It is not for us to question why but to d o and die (Emmerson). It is not my responsibility to build the church. Jesus said, “I will build my church”. It is my responsibility to say, here I am Lord, use me. I am nothing more than a tool in His hand.
I am also compelled to be a witness. I know that I can sit in a closet for the rest of my life and still go to heaven but that is impossible for me to do. Now that I am bought and paid for and are a new creature, I have to serve the Lord not only from duty but from desire. I could run off and be the prodigal son but I know that I would return from the swine sooner or later. Not because the Lord needs me to fulfill His will but because I need Him. I witness not because He needs me to but because I am his servant, I love Him, and I want please Him.
I think that one of the reasons that people question why is that they really do not understand what the main purpose of creation and salvation. We were created for one sole purpose and that is to worship, praise, and glorify God and enjoy Him forever. We screwed that up. The only way that we would be able to praise and worship Him in the heavenly places is through the plan of salvation. The fact that Jesus would have to die was in the plan in the beginning. Jesus did not decide to humble Himself only after man fell. The fact that you and I will get to live forever in paradise is a byproduct of the real purpose. Jesus did not confine Himself to bodily form, suffer and die so that we would simply not get what we deserve. The purpose of salvation was planed from the beginning so that the Father could give a love gift to His Son by the Holy Spirit. We are the bride of Christ so that we can worship Him in glory forever and ever and ever. We have not been saved so that the Lord could glorify us. That is secondary.
If free choice is true and we are all equally sinners then how can some have the ability to follow Christ and others not? How can I have the ability to choose God when I am no better than a drunken, murderous, fornicator who dies in his sin? It is more than arrogant to say that I am smart enough or good enough to choose Christ but that someone else is not, or that I am not as bad of a sinner as someone else. God does not qualify sin.
One of the questions that free choice people often bring up is, “Well what makes you so special that God would choose you?” First of all, you will have to ask Him. This is His idea not mine. Second, the Scriptures say that He has chosen the weak and foolish things of this world. He has not chosen me because I am stronger and wiser but because I am weaker and foolish.
Here are a few of the things that are either fundamentally wrong with free will or that cause much disturbance.
1. God would not have a plan for the world or even for my life. Simply knowing what the outcome would be does not constitute as a plan. If God does not have a plan for His people then you need to throw out about 5% of the Scriptures, if not more.
2. If God does have a plan then it would be dependant on the will of man. This is no plan at all. If God thinks that man is going to get it right than He is a bigger fool than I am.
3. The scriptures state that there is none who is righteous; there is none who seek after God. The validity of the scriptures would then be in question. Man is not saved on his righteousness but on the righteousness of Christ.
4. All infants who die are in hell without hope.
5. All aborted babies either elective or natural are in hell without hope
6. All of the OT saints, including John the Baptist, are in hell without hope
7. There is no doctrine of free will. At best there is only an elaborate justification.
8. Saying that the Lord could not save me without my approval stinks of self-righteousness pride which was Adams downfall in the beginniging.
9. A lot of people think that election is not fair. That is exactly right. God is not fair. He is Just and Merciful and praise God He is not fair. If He was fair then everyone would get what they deserve. Is there anyone who deserves heaven? No. Does everyone deserve Hell? Yes .
10. Salvation can be picked up and dropped whenever the individual decides, like walking through a gate. Jesus died once for your sins. He cannot die a second time. I forgot where that verse is. It may be in the list.
Another complaint by free will is that it is not really true love if you have to force someone to love you. I agree. Unfortunately this has nothing to do with election and predestination. Did you force your wife to love you? No. Did you conduct yourself in such a way that your wife does love you? Yes. Can you say that she still had to choose to love you? No. She did have to choose to commit to you in marriage but that was after she already loved you. She came to love you and she didn’t even realize it until it was to late (poor girl). She never decided to love you but, she does. Does that make it less? So it is with the Lord. Some people He has poured out His grace, mercy, and love and others He hasn’t. He has not forced me to Love Him but His Love is irresistible. His grace is irresistible.
Still another is prayer. Why would the Lord have us pray if everything is determined? Well, because He said so. I would suppose that most, if not all, of the things that the Lord has us do is for our benefit, not His. The Lord wants us to seek Him out and have a personal relationship with Him. After Adam sinned God asked him where he was. Did God not know? Of course He did, but He was developing His relationship with Adam. Who really knows why the Lord does what He does.
I am sure that you have heard of the analogy of how salvation is like a man who is drowning. Someone throws a life saver to him but it is his choice to either grab hold or not. Or this one, salvation is like a Christmas gift but the man still has to open the present to get the gift. Those are very good analogies except for one minor detail. The man is dead. The analogy is wrong from the base because it is saying that the man is still alive when the Scriptures say otherwise. I have seen plenty of dead people in my job let me tell you, working with a dead man is like working with a 200lb bag of wet hair. We h ave a saying, DRT- dead right there. I have to breathe for him. I have to pump his heart for him. He can do nothing by lay there like a dead slug. You can throw 1,000,000 life savers at this drowning man but it would be the same as throwing mill stone because he is not drowning, he is already drowned. I was not dying in my sin; I was dead in my sin but Christ is the one who made me alive not my ability to say ‘yes’. The only thing you will get out of a dead man is poop and puke and the sound affects that go with it.
Take time to go through those verses and break them down. I still have many questions myself. I know that I will be studying this for the rest of my life and still not have all of the answers. I do not believe election because it makes sense. I believe it because that is what the Bible says. I don’t have to like it; I just have to accept it. It doesn’t have to make perfect sense to me; I just have to believe it.
posted by Joel Hayes | 12:57 AM
1 Comments:
Pete, I am glad to hear that you will be studying this continually. So I hold out hope that the Lord will show you the Truth. Please don't let your "decision" in "Election" get in your way. When you continue your study, take it from the perspective that either or both sides could be wrong (in whole or in part)so that you will be able to see the truth No matter what. Don't "argue" the analogys but "explain" the scripture. Being careful to keep it in context (had to get that in there!;-)and being careful not to read into scripture what isn't there. Scripture is our authority and the basis from which we speak. I am glad for your words and see now that I must also go and study the Word concerning this topic.
Numbers 6:24
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